From Script to Screen: Josh Smith’s Directing Insights and Writing Evolution

EPISODE DESCRIPTION – Tune in to this special episode with one of Zena's coaching clients as he debriefs and talks about what it was like going from the writing stage into directing his first short film. Insights abound! Watch this to be inspired and glean new tips that are sure to boost your writing journey as well.

Dr. Joshua Damu Smith is an English Professor, a pastor, a saxophonist and a writer/director. Currently, he is conducting research for a book comparing Harriet Beecher Stowe with Quentin Tarantino and is in postproduction for his first short film titled Decaf. He is also the CEO of Zoe Center, a non-profit organization committed to mobilizing volunteers to serve the highest good. In addition to his duties as a corporate leader, he teaches at the Torrey Honors College, a classical studies program at Biola University. With all of his responsibilities, he manages to find quiet moments to read comic books and spend time with his wife, Marsee, and sons, Josué and Angelo.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Storytellers Mission with Zena Del Lowe, a podcast for artists and storytellers about changing the world for the better through story.

[00:00:10] Zena Dell Lowe: today I have a very special guest with us. This is Josh Smith and he's been one of my coaching clients for a little over a year now.

[00:00:19] and Josh got to shoot his first short film this year. And so today we're going to talk about that. We're going to kind of debrief Talk about what he learned. Talk about some of the differences between being the writer and the director. This is such exciting stuff and he had such amazing things to say.

[00:00:39] I just wanted you, this audience, to hear from him and maybe be inspired for your next project. And without further ado,

[00:00:46] Yay! I'm so excited to see you! Yeah, 

[00:00:52] Josh Smith: same here, same here. 

[00:00:54] Zena Dell Lowe: And, but I'm just so excited! You've just had a huge chapter, a huge thing that you accomplished. 

[00:01:01] Josh Smith: Yeah, yeah, I, I, I'm, I don't even have words really. 

[00:01:08] Zena Dell Lowe: Really 

[00:01:09] Josh Smith: gratitude, gratitude. 

[00:01:11] Zena Dell Lowe: Are you still floating the high? 

[00:01:14] Josh Smith: Well, I mean, it just, uh, I just remember when I was wondering if I should still do this, like before we started did act one or like, I'm, you know, thinking about like, I'm gonna have time, I have like, I do all these other things, my kids are young, like, how am I gonna do it, can I even write, really, do I maybe, maybe I can't really write, I think I can, uh, so I'm thinking about all that, and then, um, you know, all of our sessions, and making some progress, and then getting frustrated with the feature, and how long it takes, and then, Then if I wanted to make it, how long that'll take.

[00:01:56] And then to be on this end, finishing the short, I, I don't. 

[00:02:03] Zena Dell Lowe: Well, that's exactly right. And, and you, you know what, you're not wrong about the feature thing. It's, it's awful. Like, the idea of first you have to have an excellent script and then you have to try to make it and all that, it is an awful journey.

[00:02:19] But, what I'm thinking for you is you can write a short, easy, and that can be practice for you as a director. I don't think you're one of those people that absolutely needs to be the writer. Like, you don't have, like, You know, there's some writer directors where they, their whole vision is I have stuff I want to do and, you know, P.

[00:02:49] T. Anderson being one of them, but you're not really like that. You're open. So you could find. other people who have finished scripts and you can, but then because you are a writer, you can fix it. You can see, that's the thing. None of this is wasted because you're developing your skills, which are, which will help you be a better director producer.

[00:03:13] Plus you're still going to be writing short stuff that you can be making in the interval to be able to continue developing your skills. So it's it is a good thing, but you're right I mean it is so daunting and I that's why I haven't really done much with my own features like I'm, like it just takes so long 

[00:03:34] Josh Smith: It is and 

[00:03:36] Zena Dell Lowe: and if they're not paying you 

[00:03:39] Josh Smith: no, and what's interesting is so, you know, the the The woman that I told you about who you know She came to my group and talked and, you know, um, she had me come in with some other people and just read some scripts for her students who wrote, um, and even she was talking about like she has things has been option and stuff like that, but she's like, okay, so then they buy it and they don't do anything with it.

[00:04:07] And it's like, And then what she's saying is she's seeing people with less talent than her, you know, make stuff. Um, you know, it is what it is, but they're making their stuff and she's like, man, I just need to, I mean, just to your point about the, the difficulty. Even in someone who's in her position, that it it's, um, I mean, there's ways to move forward with it, of course, but it's just, um, is 

[00:04:36] Zena Dell Lowe: what you just did.

[00:04:37] You do it. 

[00:04:39] Josh Smith: Yeah. 

[00:04:39] Zena Dell Lowe: You just make it happen. And then, uh, you know, what I want to do is I'm, I'm looking forward to getting it. I want to watch it because I want to analyze it break it down like and and use it as a learning tool Okay, what can we learn from this? In fact, that's one of the things I have on the agenda today is um If you're going to do this kind of thing You need to debrief with someone who understands story but also who understands the challenge of the writer versus the director because they are two different hats.

[00:05:15] It's a different beast and you learn a lot. Don't you? Did you learn a lot about writing when you were? Yeah. 

[00:05:25] Josh Smith: Lena, there were some things I remember you were telling me, and I heard you, and it's not like I didn't understand you, but when I was there, I was like, wow. 

[00:05:37] Zena Dell Lowe: Now I get it. Like what? Can you think of any examples?

[00:05:41] Well, 

[00:05:42] Josh Smith: I mean, you know, you told me, okay, watch the length, a lot of dialogue, and you're like, that's fine. That's fine. But I didn't realize, I, I, I, I didn't realize. Um, until, you know what, it, it started to change and remind me of the guy, he was the first person I met with and I met with him. It's not Steven, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.

[00:06:06] Yes. And when I came to him, my script was 30 pages and that's because I needed, I need to add more action, et cetera. And it's just what it is. And he was amazing because he's, he's so down to earth, but he was cutting me up with a nice tone. I mean, you cut me up, but I mean, I was fine with it. I was fine with it.

[00:06:26] And he was like, yeah, you know, you probably want to think about this. But the way he talked about what the, and like honing in on like thematically what's going on here and visually. And after that session, I was immediately able, because he was thinking like a director, right? Right. And I was immediately able to like, okay, I can cut this.

[00:06:48] I can start here. And it just helped me to focus. And that's when I got it down to 15 pages. 

[00:06:53] Zena Dell Lowe: Wow. 

[00:06:54] Josh Smith: That, that was the thing that did it. And then, And then I go into Steven Sessions, right? And we're, we're working through the script. And then, now having actors work through it and it's like, Oh, the dramatic scene is here.

[00:07:12] I wouldn't have known that unless you were working with actors. It's like, so then we did a, it's not a rewrite, but a reordering. 

[00:07:19] Zena Dell Lowe: Sure. 

[00:07:20] Josh Smith: And that was incredibly helpful. And just the process of doing the movie, working with actors and then saying like, Oh, this is why things get cut. This is why. When you see the movie and then you see the script, the script is different because some things they couldn't shoot.

[00:07:36] Some things is too much dialogue. Some things was like, no, this didn't work anyway, but you're just married to it when you're writing it. 

[00:07:42] Zena Dell Lowe: Right. 

[00:07:43] Josh Smith: And then the cost of shooting something, or, you know, you only have X amount of takes. So we're just going to cut that and do this. It was just, I learned this was a film production course.

[00:07:54] Zena Dell Lowe: It was, it exactly was. That's exactly right. You just got your A semester, I mean more than a semester, I mean, that's what you did. You are learning on the fly by doing it. Everything that they try to teach you in film school, but you don't know until you do it. And even, even all the talking, and here's the other thing I love about this, like, it's a collaborative process, right?

[00:08:21] Oh my 

[00:08:21] Josh Smith: gosh. 

[00:08:22] Zena Dell Lowe: Like we had all our sessions, and then I'm like, okay, here's who else you need to meet with. And they brought something else that I couldn't bring, but you needed before you got on that set. And then the actors bring something to the table that then changes your orientation. So no matter how well you could have prepared that script, it was still going to change.

[00:08:47] on the set or, you know, when you actually get into filming it because of what the actors are bringing to the table. And then you're, then you have to be able to pivot. And if you lock yourself in, you will lose some of the magic because part of the magic is being able to know where, you know, where to pivot.

[00:09:09] Where to make the adjustments to allow the magic to happen. And then you're right. You're absolutely right. You're also now you're not just thinking artistically. See, that's a mistake that a lot of people think they think that they, if they're not just thinking artistically by God, they've sold out and they're, you know, now they're doing something formulaic.

[00:09:30] No, it's about being a responsible steward of your finances, of your locations, of your talent, of your crew. And balancing all that together to figure out what you can do in the amount of time and resources you have at your disposal. And so then you have to make cuts and edits and pivots according to that.

[00:09:56] Josh Smith: It was so humbling. It was so humbling. I, so, even though I was the director and the respect for that was there. My first ad was telling me what to do. My, uh, my, uh, camera di they, I, so first ad, and also my dp, it was, it was really like a trio. I mean, like I was, that they were deferring to me. They were saying, okay, what do you wanna do?

[00:10:27] And then she was like, okay, you could do one more take. That's all we got time for. Okay. May, that's it. And then my DP would like. Say, okay. And he would just from a camera perspective, and sometimes he's like low key directing the actors too, from the standpoint of positioning, but it was fine. 

[00:10:44] Zena Dell Lowe: That's right.

[00:10:44] That's called your collaborators. That's why you bring them on board. If you didn't listen to them. And allow them to inform you you're a fool because that's their job, right? But it's also important what you said they've deferred to you though. And if you would have said, I know you say we have one more time for one more take, but we're not going to get it in one more take.

[00:11:08] We need to, we need to make an adjustment. This isn't working. Then she would have, or was it a woman AD? Then she would have said, okay, let me make some adjustments because, but her job is to keep you on schedule and to tell you those things. So I love that. And, and it is collaborative with those people.

[00:11:25] Those are your inner people. 

[00:11:28] Josh Smith: Can I tell you how they 

[00:11:29] Zena Dell Lowe: do? 

[00:11:29] Josh Smith: My first ad is a superstar. I, I'm just saying that as a person who's never done this before, I didn't know what a first ad did. She, I mean, most of my crews believers anyway, 'cause most of them from Biola present, or, or, or former. But she had this, like, she was like, if you saw her personality, she just seemed nice and like, you know, she was one of my former students, so I remember her.

[00:11:55] But so she's incredibly personable and she's like, she's task oriented. So she's not intimidated by me, respects me, but she doesn't. So she just tells me what it is and she knows all the protocols. And so she was, it was that perfect balance. And she was like, if you ever need a first AD, she is amazing.

[00:12:20] Zena Dell Lowe: That's great. 

[00:12:21] Josh Smith: She's amazing. My DP was amazing. Um, you know, we talked through all the stuff and we just collaborated and I told him, I don't, I don't know much about cameras and camera angles and that's fine, that's fine. And just, we just talked through it. He was amazing. Um, Oh my gosh, Steven session. I have to tell you, it was very scary to direct going in.

[00:12:45] Um, that fear of like, even just doing the auditions, I'm thinking these people are going to know I've never done this before. I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm just, I just had to act like. You know, um, and then, and then the first rehearsal, I'm freaking out just before, because I'm reading this book and trying to figure out, like, how do I do this?

[00:13:06] And, and, and then I go to my first AD, and like, she's my former student, but I'm coming to her, like, a little scared. It's just like, I don't know if I prepared enough, etc. And she was like, okay, you know, she's my student. She's like, okay, Dr. Smith, listen, I think it's gonna be fine. That's the rehearsal. This is where you work these things out.

[00:13:25] I think it does. There's minutes before they come. I mean, I still feel inadequate. And so, and then in the early part of it, my producer who has some directing experience, I see him trying kind of low key, kind of stepping in a little bit and doing a little bit more. And I'm like, man, is he going to take over?

[00:13:44] But at a certain point, I just, I just grabbed the tools that I had. I said, okay, so I'm a teacher. What tools do I use when I'm teaching? And I just grabbed those. And we just got through the rehearsal. And then the next, in a few days, I went to Steven's week long workshop. 

[00:14:03] Zena Dell Lowe: So you, you had that rehearsal prior to going to Steven's workshop.

[00:14:07] Josh Smith: Yeah, I did. Um, and I went to his workshop and that was like being in, that's where, that's where directing felt like a calling. That, when I, I don't know what it was, I was like, I know I want to be a director. I, I, before I didn't know and now I know. And every day it was like I was in this bubble because I had to drive.

[00:14:30] Two hours in traffic to get there. We're there all day, had lunch, meeting cool people coming back. So I'm in this bubble for a week and he's such a great teacher. Um, he did a little lecture on the front end, but then we were just doing it. And there was only one other student in the class. So we're working through the material.

[00:14:52] What I got from Steven is tools. He broke it down to the set. It was okay. Here's basically what this is. Here are the tools. And then I had the confidence 

[00:15:04] Zena Dell Lowe: when 

[00:15:05] Josh Smith: I came back, I was like, okay. And it just, I slipped on directing like a glove internally, internally. I felt like, and I felt like the crew saw me that way.

[00:15:19] And there were points where like, okay, man, um, we're going to do this. We'll let you work with the actors, get that, figure out the actors for help us with the actors. They're not playing their line, whatever they help me. And I had the tools to respond to like, how do I get this? I mean, I'm not saying I mastered it, but, and I, they thought I had done it before the, the, the.

[00:15:40] The actors and some of the crew, they thought I had done it before. I mean, credit to Steven. 

[00:15:46] Zena Dell Lowe: That's amazing. 

[00:15:47] Josh Smith: Credit to him all the way. 

[00:15:50] Zena Dell Lowe: I'm so glad. More than what I 

[00:15:52] Josh Smith: paid. 

[00:15:54] Zena Dell Lowe: So see, that's, what's amazing, right? Like talk about God's orchestration. What are, what are the chances that first of all, that Steven would have that workshop right then.

[00:16:04] But also he was staying with me at the time and I was like, Oh, My client needs to come to your court. This is perfect. I mean, that is God. That is a God thing. It just is. And even Tamar, you know, Tamar isn't a believer. Um, but I knew he would help. I knew he was the right person to refer you to. And he's such a great guy.

[00:16:30] And I want him to be a believer so bad. Like, um, but he's He's so great and he's so smart and he helped me when I did my short because I didn't go to film school either. And there's just stuff we don't know if we haven't gone to film school and that you only learn by doing. And you need someone to come alongside you and help you.

[00:16:56] So you loved it. The whole thing was fantastic. And now you're fired up and you want to do this forever. 

[00:17:04] Josh Smith: I do. I do. I, I don't, I mean, I think the directing experience is right up there. I mean, like, it's less frustrating than writing because you've done the hardest parts already. If you, you know what I'm saying?

[00:17:18] Um, but I like the writing because I like creating the world. Right. I like creating the world. I like creating the characters. Um, but directing has So many elements because then you have to look at now you have to look at You have to think about the histories of the characters differently, so that you can then speak to your actors and help them think through how to present.

[00:17:42] And, uh, what Stephen shared with me is, I was very shocked. He said most directors don't like working with actors. I didn't, I didn't understand that, but he was just talking about how common that is, and I just, I loved it. 

[00:17:59] Zena Dell Lowe: Well, see, and that's, the truth of the matter is, It didn't always used to be that way, you know, that that's kind of the specialty, right?

[00:18:07] Like working with actors is really what the director is supposed to be doing. The director isn't supposed to Necessarily be caring about all the technical stuff. That's the DP, you know Getting the right flag getting the right whatever, you know, the angle the what whatever shot setting up the the The dolly, you know, these types of things, technically it shouldn't necessarily be the director who's concerned about that.

[00:18:38] The director is supposed to have a vision for how he sees the frame, but really then working with the actors to get the performance out. And what I love about Steven is that he approaches it that way, the old school way. And here's the reason why I think it resonates with you, Josh. See, writing, I suspect, while you love to create the world, actually doesn't naturally feed into your gifts as well, because it's very isolating.

[00:19:16] Introverts typically make good writers and I'm not saying whether or not you're an introvert or an extrovert, but I do know you're a leader and you are a person who loves to Have community, have community and relationship, and you actually love like that mentorship, but the one on one, it's more than just like being in the pulpit.

[00:19:44] And I'm, I know you can do that. I actually watched one of your sermons. I was like, huh, that's, that's totally different than the Josh. I know, like he, woo, look at him go. So I know you can do that, but that's, but even that is not necessarily in your. Natural will. This is you. This is you. You love the one on one relationship building, community, connection, intimacy in a healthy, godly, beautiful way.

[00:20:19] And that's what directing allows you to do. And then not only are you doing it with your crew, like that's the exciting part about directing that people don't think about. It's the actual onset experience. Yes. 

[00:20:34] Josh Smith: Yes. 

[00:20:36] Zena Dell Lowe: Right. You're leading a team in that experience and the magic is there. It's everything that's happening in this bubble of creative energy and kismet.

[00:20:51] But the bonus, the cherry on top is that the work that you're doing in that space for that time period, Then gets to go through a process where now other people get to experience it post haste, you know, after that experience. And so now there's a whole nother level of interaction that's possible. So it's all of these different things.

[00:21:19] So that's why I think it resonates with you. It really taps into the core of. Of what I think you're called to do, which is beyond just being a director. It's about the way you connect, the way you lead, the way you dive into relationships with other. 

[00:21:41] Josh Smith: You nailed it. You nailed that. Um, that what you said is what I felt.

[00:21:47] Yeah, I, I, I, I, I love that interpersonal I love working with people. I love mentoring. I love teaching. I love helping people grow in that kind. And really, to be honest with you, preaching is frustrating because It just has limitations as to what it can actually do to help people grow. It just, it can only go so far.

[00:22:13] It has a place, but in, once your church is a certain size, you actually can't interact with everyone interpersonally. So, where do I get those outlets? And there's other ways I do it, but directing? And let me tell you this. You, you nailed it. I like, I saw the opportunity to draw, like, to shine Christ's light.

[00:22:34] Is I, so almost everyone was a believer, even some of the actors. But you know, they weren't necessarily, I mean, like we didn't recruit them that way and the ministry opportunities with them. Um, when I, we had a, you know, introduction and I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm just debriefing . That's what we're 

[00:22:56] Zena Dell Lowe: doing. We're doing.

[00:22:57] Josh Smith: Um, so, um, a, a couple of them were. Overt believers, at least nominally. And one, I'm not sure that she was or not, but I went around the room. I kind of asked him questions and, um, things I do with my students. So I asked them each a different question to kind of learn their personalities. And one of them was like, I said, what question do you not want me to ask you?

[00:23:21] And he's like, he sat there, it was like, And his question, what he said was, do I want to get right with Christ? 

[00:23:33] Zena Dell Lowe: Wow. Wow. 

[00:23:37] Josh Smith: I mean, it was up to him. He could have told me anything, but like, you know, um, and so we, we had those kinds of interactions and let me, the other thing I did is I hired an intercessor. I knew from the beginning, I hired an intercessor.

[00:23:55] And I knew who I wanted to hire. I met this woman at some other event and I saw her character and like, she, you met people like that. This is what they do. She lives in Vegas. We pay for her transportation. I want you to be on set. And I paid her. And then I had a couple volunteers from the church who volunteered to pray.

[00:24:13] She was on set the whole time. And let me tell you, we felt the presence. She went above and beyond. So she interacted with each crew member, each actor. She has that gift to kind of sense things. And so she's praying with people, some people crying, whatever. She was all in that. There was a moment, the first day of shooting, it's rained.

[00:24:36] And we were like, okay, Lola, we need prayer. So, we figured out, I mean, I just know there's things the Lord did that I can't, like, document, like, this tied to that, but I know, I know the impact of prayer. Um, we had a, we, before our first shoot, we had a worship. We got everyone together as many as we could. I had my, one of my musicians, we had a time of worship together as a cast and crew and everybody in the show, but we just did it.

[00:25:05] And so I think there are so many things that went well on set. I just, I attributed to the Lord to having her name is Lola, the intercessor there, and then my first AD was the other piece. She was like, those are the MVPs of the, of the crew. But just to let you know that that's part of my vision too, to, to Um, I'm thinking about all the people who are just mistreated in the entertainment industry and they're just used to having a bad experience.

[00:25:31] Zena Dell Lowe: And not just mistreated by the entertainment industry, but mistreated by Christians. I'll tell you some of the worst people in the entertainment industry are Christians. And I know that sounds crazy, but I have had a terrible experience with all of the so called Christian production companies I've been hired to work for.

[00:25:51] They treat me far worse than any secular company I've ever worked with. So, Christians, In the entertainment industry have really hurt us and, and cause damage. They actually cause damage. So you're turning that around. You're changing that. You're giving people a life giving experience as both an entertainment professional, but also as a Christian in the entertainment space.

[00:26:22] Josh Smith: I think that aspect of it just breathed new life into my desire to do it. Cause I, you know, people say like entertainment industry for them is ministry, but like, I just saw the ministry part of just being present in this craft and just being the Christian that you are supposed to be in the moment. Um, it just makes such a difference in people's lives.

[00:26:45] And so that, that was another layer of the significance. I mean, I already knew, like, I felt released to do this, but like, I feel, I feel the responsibility. I mean, it's something I love, but I felt the responsibility of being present in these spaces and doing these things. And you're absolutely right.

[00:27:04] There's the, there's so much happening, um, in the, during the production of it. And then when people watch the movie, that's. That's another dimension of it, but there's ministry going on before anyone even sees the film. 

[00:27:18] Zena Dell Lowe: And what I love too is just, you are, I think there's something powerful about art and creativity because then it's almost like the ministry is.

[00:27:35] Ancillary, I don't know how to explain it, but it, it, it feels more organic. You're not, you don't have those people there deliberately to try to pour into their lives for their own purposes. You have them there to collaborative, to collaboratively, and let me say that again, to collaboratively work on a piece of art, and when you work on that art.

[00:27:56] It taps into something fundamental about humanity. It goes to a deeper level of our being. I think it taps into God, God's stuff. You know, so working on art becomes almost a more powerful way to be able to an environment within which to have ministry opportunities because you're tapping into fundamental truths about human beings as they actually are.

[00:28:21] And about the world as it really is. Which makes it exciting and it allows it to slide past the brain and go straight to the heart. 

[00:28:30] Josh Smith: You're right. So, so the last thing I'll say about this and then I'll, I'll bring my reflection to a close is like, the cherry on top for me was, I didn't know Steven was a Y whammer. Oh! I didn't know that. I didn't, I didn't know if he was a believer or not. I mean, I didn't know. But I mean, it became obvious over time.

[00:28:50] But like, I don't know, I don't know if you know, I'm a Y whammer too. Like that's, I, I, when I was 15 my parents sent me on a, missions trip with the, it's YWAM, but they have a subsidiary organized group called King's Kids. 

[00:29:03] Zena Dell Lowe: And 

[00:29:03] Josh Smith: I got sent with like 60 other kids who love Jesus. I'd never been around kids that serious about their faith.

[00:29:08] And we were in Europe for like three months doing the vandalistic skits. And my fervor from the Lord today comes from that back in 92. And every time I see a YWAMer. 

[00:29:18] Zena Dell Lowe: For anyone, you know, that isn't aware youth with a mission. Yes. 

[00:29:23] Josh Smith: Yes. Yes. Yes. So, and then when I meet somebody from YWAM, like, I, like, you've sensed their, uh, bed.

[00:29:33] They have, we all have the same, we recognize each other when I see someone who's had a YWAM experience. Like I, it's weird to say, like, I know what it smells like. And that makes it, I mean, not a physical smell, but like, I, I can sense it on you. Um, and so I was resonating with him and when I found it, it was at the very end.

[00:29:54] A thing and I found that out and then and then at the end I had everyone left. I said man Can I pray for you, bro? Cause I mean, that dude, man, he just, he just pours out everything. And I, I mean, just knowing him that week, I know he gives and gives and gives and gives and gives. And I'm like, dude, I, I gotta, I gotta show my appreciation, man.

[00:30:21] Let me pray for you. Oh man. So he's, he's, he's special. 

[00:30:28] Zena Dell Lowe: Let me ask you a question. 

[00:30:30] Josh Smith: Yeah. 

[00:30:31] Zena Dell Lowe: One of the things I've been toying with, with Steven, like I have my, my place here and I was like, what if we co hosted like some sort of, uh, week long event where, you know, I can work with the writers. And then in the mornings and then in the afternoon, we have the directing and the workshop and we did that for a week.

[00:30:54] I mean, what if, and do you think that would be an amazing experience for people? Oh 

[00:30:59] Josh Smith: my gosh, that would be I don't know if I'll be able to take it. That would be amazing. 

[00:31:09] Zena Dell Lowe: Right. 

[00:31:10] Josh Smith: Would be the synergy of that experience. And that's kind of along the lines of, I mean, I was, I know I was texting you. I wasn't explaining everything, but like, and I, of course I have to talk to Biola and just coordinate everything, but I would, I somehow I would love.

[00:31:29] You, the two of you to be able to interact with Biola film students in some, I'd like to figure that out. I mean, there's a lot of things to work through and stuff like that, but it's like the value that I've gotten from you and from Steven far exceed anything I've gotten in a classroom in any formal film course at UCLA or USC.

[00:31:54] And I'm not saying that to diminish what they're doing, um, There's different contextual things, but the proof is in the pudding, 

[00:32:02] Zena Dell Lowe: right? 

[00:32:02] Josh Smith: I just made a short film. 

[00:32:04] Zena Dell Lowe: That's right Yeah, you did. Well and see part of what I'm thinking too is it's an opportunity to bring together writers Directors and actors like everybody has a chance to participate Heck we could probably even bring in people that want to be DPS to film some scenes You know, and it could be seen work rather than, you know, short films so that people could actually leave after a week and have work, you know, that they could post on YouTube or whatever.

[00:32:39] And they'd have that experience, that practice actors. writers, producers, maybe, I don't know, but directors and definitely DPs. I mean, I feel like there's something there. And, um, my place is a perfect environment for it too. Cause we could break people off. They could go rehearse, you know, there's lots of different potential locations, um, something like that.

[00:33:02] Anyway, 

[00:33:02] Josh Smith: it would be amazing. Both of you are skilled at teaching. Like you can break this intimidating craft down to Basic principles and actions that you can take. You got to practice them, but, um, I've never had anyone explain writing to me like you. And I've never had anyone explained directing to me like Steven.

[00:33:30] I can say, okay, I can do that. I can do that. And, um, and then seeing the F and then creating a result, I think it would be amazing. I hope you would do something like that. 

[00:33:47] Zena Dell Lowe: Okay, well, I'll, I'll get on the horn with, uh, Steven and see what we can plan because I think that'd be a really neat thing. And, I think a lot of people might be interested.

[00:33:58] It would definitely, I mean, you, you, you're saying it was life changing and you couldn't have done your project without the combination. So, that's pretty huge. 

[00:34:10] Josh Smith: And, it was like, too, the moment when we stopped our sessions, that was also good. Cause then it was like, okay, it's just me. And there were times I had to make revisions to the script, and I didn't have you to go call.

[00:34:23] But I was bringing back to mind things you said. 

[00:34:27] Zena Dell Lowe: You had the tools to be able to do it on your own. It's not like you have to be on training wheels for the rest. You know, I always hate that about people that have like a life long Counselor or therapist that they see. I'm like, well, isn't the point of a therapist to get you through a certain phase so that then you have the tools and skills you need to be able to make your own decisions?

[00:34:49] Like if you're being trained to have to always refer to them or defer to them, then I think that might be a problematic relationship. But here we train you and then send you off and you have everything you need to be able to make those calls yourself. That's good. 

[00:35:06] Josh Smith: Yeah. 

[00:35:07] Zena Dell Lowe: Okay. So let's continue. Just, let's get down to the work.

[00:35:14] Okay. So we just talked about your experience and how it has a ministry feel and all those things, which is fascinating and very, very important. And I loved hearing from that. 

[00:35:22] But now let's talk about your work and the specific themes. That you learned that you need to articulate now so that you can bring that into the next experience What were some of the? Mistakes, let's start with mistakes What were some of the mistakes?

[00:35:44] That you felt you realized when you got into the production process like oh, I shouldn't have done that or oh This didn't work. This could have been fixed, but I didn't know that until this moment. Can you think of anything like that? 

[00:36:03] Josh Smith: Well, definitely Less dialogue, more action. The action, the action, action is so like, it's a visual medium.

[00:36:15] And I'm, I'm, I'm in post production now. So I am, you know, I'm waiting on the second cut from the editor, but the visual part of it is so significant. Um, and having a reason for every visual cue, um, even the smallest thing, because it, people's eyes go to it. Um, And you know how it ties to the theme, the theme.

[00:36:49] Yeah. The theme of the movie and how that is communicated visually. Those are the, like my next script, I'm, I'm, I'm going to work more. I'm going to be more intentional about the action and, and by dialogue. 

[00:37:06] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah. So here's, and it just a clarity on that. So part of it is that dialogue is an extension of action when it's coming out.

[00:37:15] Of action 

[00:37:17] Josh Smith: the 

[00:37:17] Zena Dell Lowe: problem is when you have talking heads, right? And so we did we tried to work on that like, okay What if you know, they're just sitting here talking for a long time in the diner, but more has to happen so what could possibly be happening and So making sure that the dialogue becomes an extension of the action and by action, it isn't action for action's sake, like you just said.

[00:37:41] It is action with purpose. It really comes down to what does the character want? What are they actively pursuing? And then, that means that now the actions are coming, the actions of the characters are coming out of their head. pursuits, but then on another level, you as the director are thinking visually of communicating things to your audience where it's not coming out of the actors, but it still has to be communicated to them.

[00:38:12] So if the actors are walking into an apartment building, you might follow them with the camera and then You know, tilt up to show, you know, community living center, the sign for that, which is a visual cue that makes sense at that point in the story to show us where they're going, but you're, you're building that action into the story is not coming directly from the characters.

[00:38:38] And yet it is because they just walked by and now you have a reason to tilt up, right? That's kind of the stuff you're talking about. So it's to make a list, it's. Not just action for action's sake, it's actions that are being driven by the characters in pursuit of a goal, and it's the visual cues that the director is building into the story to help communicate important things to the audience that you don't want to have to do through dialogue.

[00:39:18] Josh Smith: Would that 

[00:39:18] Zena Dell Lowe: be accurate? 

[00:39:20] Josh Smith: You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Um And then to, to add further to what you're saying, action with purpose, one of the things I learned in the directing process, and even though I knew this in my head, but these are characters, but like, these are people. These are, these are human beings.

[00:39:42] And not that I didn't know that, but as a director, because you're commuting, you're working collaboratively, collaboratively with the actors, and they're trying to make sense of the actions in the script. Like, why would my character do this? Which means I've got to think deeply of like this, who this person is and why they did it.

[00:40:05] And I think going back to a writing situation after that, it's like the ways in which I would think about my characters in terms of like who they are as people. The deeper that well is, the more you have to draw from when you're doing anything else, whether it be dialogue or a choice an actor will make.

[00:40:28] This is a person with desires and hopes and dreams that were forged their childhood, their experiences, all of that is part of that. And there's a, there's a respect that you have to have for their journey. And there's a sense in which the character is kind of deciding this based upon like who they are and the more I can have that in the writing process, the more that the writing can then reflect that and directing, etc.

[00:40:55] But just, I don't know if that makes sense, but just thinking. No, it 

[00:40:56] Zena Dell Lowe: does. I think what you're, you're speaking to here is the psychology of human beings and the credibility of your characters. Yes. Because the truth of the matter is, One of the things I'm constantly writing in scripts that I'm critiquing, or in, you know, my students scripts, are things like, justify, I don't buy this, uh, you know, this wasn't set up, where is this coming from?

[00:41:23] Because, and here's why I think that happens, I think it happens because they're not really real to us. They are fake. They are constructs. And so they become real when you have a in flesh actor now trying to embody that character. And now you're like, Oh, oh gosh, I could have thought more deeply about that.

[00:41:48] So you have to become an amateur psychologist to understand human psychology and what it is that you're doing. That drives us. Why do we choose to do certain things? Why would we do that? And really make it real. If we can make it real for our character, then the actors can make it real. And then it, it all rings true.

[00:42:08] It starts there though. It starts there. 

[00:42:13] Josh Smith: You know the moment in the process where that rang true for me the most was the moment when one of the actors who was more dramatic in her like strength. Um, you know, I'm writing this is thinking primarily comedic. There's dramatic moments. But she did a scene that I didn't know was dramatic.

[00:42:33] But the way she played it, when we were done with the scene, we were all teary eyed. She was crying. And she like, I met my character for the first time in her performance. 

[00:42:46] Zena Dell Lowe: Wow. 

[00:42:48] Josh Smith: I just like, we were all just, I just, I didn't know who she was. And then I knew she was. And I was just, I was moved. I mean, it's something I wrote, but it's something someone else brought to life by their skill.

[00:43:08] And it was like, I was being introduced as if I didn't write it. Like it was, I was being introduced to this person and it was, and I saw, it was like, I saw the service. of, of art and acting in terms of helping to help human beings process things. It was, it was a such a power of like the, the performance she gave it was such a service to us to see that in the gift you're giving an audience by exposing someone's humanity in this way.

[00:43:36] It was just, it was just so powerful. It was just so powerful. 

[00:43:40] Zena Dell Lowe: That's awesome. That is awesome. I cannot wait to see this short by the way. Where are you going to show it? Are you going to put it on YouTube? What are you going to do with it? 

[00:43:50] Josh Smith: Eventually, I am gonna have a premier. We're gonna show it at a theater.

[00:43:56] Um, it may be in the fall. We're trying to find preparation because we want to invite a lot of our church and different people to come out. And so I'm going to give you plenty of notice because I want you. I want you, Stephen Tamra to come out. Um, and Yeah, so I'm working, my, my editor is a student, so, who just graduated, so I'm, you know, I'm working with her to, I mean, she's good, I just have to kind of work with her, but we're making some progress on it, so.

[00:44:22] Zena Dell Lowe: But I love that too, because part of what you're doing is this is again, part of the ministry, right? You're helping young people to improve their skills. Now, at some point, you know, you might need to have a professional editor look it over or, you know, maybe tweak some things if she can't get it quite right.

[00:44:40] But I love that you're, you're helping people develop their skills. Cause that's a very real needed skill and you're giving people an opportunity. Um, one thing, have you thought about submitting it to film festivals? 

[00:44:54] Josh Smith: I have. Um, so my, my thought with that is to screen it that one time. And then, you know, we'll just actually, as soon as it's the final cut of it, you know, we'll look at the film festival calendar and figure out which ones we'll, um, submit them to.

[00:45:11] And then when that cycle is done, then we'll, then I'll post it online for people to see. 

[00:45:16] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah, I really think this would be a good short to submit to film festivals. And what you want to do is you want to find the ones that. Affirm like positive messages. I mean, there's a lot out there. I mean don't submit to Christian festivals per se submit to Regular festivals that celebrate that have an aspect of it that celebrate positive messages or spiritual themes Or something like that, you know, and there are some christian festivals out there that are mainstream, you know That's what i'm saying.

[00:45:54] You don't want to keep this in the bubble. I would get this in front of You Real people and and see how it does and it you might find that it just really plays well And and the reason why that's important is for one for one you're meeting people, right? It's another aspect of the ministry because if you get your like when I did ragdoll I went to, I think, seven film festivals that I was accepted to.

[00:46:24] I submitted to, I think, to 10. And so I, you know, you want to limit it. You want it because it's expensive. So I think I picked 10 and I was accepted to seven, which is huge actually. And in one of those, I won the audience award for best short film director. And. That was huge because there's a cash prize with it, but it's a huge thing.

[00:46:53] And then I also won a couple of other smaller awards at different festivals, but it didn't matter because what happens is when you go, then not only are you meeting all these other artists, but then you also have an opportunity to talk about your film. It's another ministry opportunity. And you're with, uh, Artists and collaborators and people that love this kind of thing.

[00:47:17] And you just don't know the, the partnerships, the opportunities, the relationships that are going to come out of that. But it's wonderful. So it's another phase of it. And here's the other reason why it's important. It also is a way for you to test how good your film actually is. You know, part of the problem with filmmaking today is for one, it's really hard to find an audience because there is a saturated market.

[00:47:47] So sometimes it's hard for us to know how good something is, but when we're submitting it to a film festival and we get to go, usually. You're seeing 10 other shorts in your block. And so you can really kind of get an idea of how good you are, how, how you compare. And we need that. We need that. It's not like sports where you get a chance to compete, but here you have a chance to compete.

[00:48:10] And I think that's important for us because we need to have an honest assessment We should be realistic about where we're at and where we need improvement, and it just gives us an opportunity to get better. So there's that. Um, but there's also that, the fact that there isn't really a venue for shorts.

[00:48:30] What do you do with a short film? There really isn't a venue for it. So this becomes the venue. This is the opportunity for people to see what you made, and it be it's the festivals. So it makes it exciting then because you have a place. Now, of course, at the end of all that, you can always put it on YouTube, but whether or not that will find an audience might, is another thing.

[00:48:55] But you're actually trying to make film, not just sketches. You know, a lot of the stuff that does well on YouTube, they're not really films. 

[00:49:04] Josh Smith: You're right. Yeah. I was noticing that I've, I've seen some of the, I guess now you can see them on like Instagram or they're just like, and it's just. It's almost like extended jokes, or like, I don't know, it's just not 

[00:49:21] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah, they're SNL type things.

[00:49:23] Yeah, 

[00:49:23] Josh Smith: yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:49:24] Zena Dell Lowe: You know, that's why Key and Peele, they do so well. You know, those, they're so good, and theirs are really high quality. But they're sketches. I mean, they're funny sketches and it all takes place in one setting. You know, you're doing a film and that's different. So this becomes the place for you to find an audience.

[00:49:46] And then the hope is here's the true hope about it. Not only are you, you know, meeting people, meeting potential collaborators, finding audience for your work. Improving your own skills testing your abilities compared to other people, but you're also Looking for the opportunity to make features or television shows and it often comes out of that You might find financiers.

[00:50:14] You might find producing partners. You might find somebody who goes. I love your work I want to help. I want to join with you. I want to make a feature film Let's start working on that and you'll be ready then because you'll have done these So that's the end goal is to get to a point where you are ready You don't want to prematurely do a feature The truth is because it's so hard like you should have a couple of these shorts under your belt before you jump into a feature 

[00:50:45] Josh Smith: Lena I was just reflecting on the three days we shot and I was talking to some of the film students I'm like, so is this what this is like to do a feature times?

[00:50:54] Like how many days? Like, yep, it's just the physical grind of, and we just had a few locations and we figured that out, so it was like, on the ground, I mean, it was, but a feature, I mean, I was just trying to multiply this reality times whatever a feature is. 

[00:51:16] Zena Dell Lowe: Yeah, and you know, typically speaking, it's really difficult to shoot a feature in less time than, say, four weeks.

[00:51:29] You know, that's 20 days, which is Is actually ridiculous because that means if you have a hundred page script that means you're trying to shoot Five pages a day and that gives you no leeway for mistakes I mean and you and shooting five pages a day for a feature is a lot. Most people can only shoot say three successfully.

[00:51:53] That's all you can get done in a day. So to shoot five would be pretty fast. So most people try to plan for a six week shoot. And this is in low budget world. And this of course presupposes that you're taking off the weekends, you know, it's a five day shoot, or maybe it's a six day shoot even, but even then you have certain union rules you have to follow and you have to make sure you're not abusing people and you need to give people a break, especially depending on how long it is.

[00:52:19] So, anyway, all this to say, it's hard, it's hard to shoot a feature. And so you want to have these experiences, enough of them under your belt, that by the time you get to that, you have the ability now. You know what to expect. You have the grit and the stick to itiveness. You've, you've, you've developed that skill, that muscle. 

[00:52:45] Josh Smith: yeah, the experience has been helpful, educational in so many, so many ways, so many ways, a lot of clarity. Gives me a lot of clarity. 

[00:52:56] Zena Dell Lowe: Well, I love what you pointed out about what you learned in terms of writing. Okay. More action, less dialogue. Make sure that the dialogue that does happen comes out of action or as an extension of action, more visual cues, because you got to show things and not tell them.

[00:53:14] What, is there anything else that really, Oh, and the psychology. Of your characters really thinking through how do I make them real? What's motivating them? Make sure they're super credit credible and that you've thought through The justifying reasons for all of their choices Anything else that jumps out that you feel like would be a good thing to articulate 

[00:53:38] Josh Smith: I think it's an extension of what we said, but it's like asking why a lot asking why um Once it's on the page that you have to like the actor has to justify the action You Um, so just asking why a lot.

[00:53:56] Um, 

[00:53:57] Zena Dell Lowe: Like why would the character do this? 

[00:54:00] Josh Smith: Yeah, why this action? Um, you know, I mean, keep asking the why. Um, and then also the way that I describe, um, I think the use of, what can I say, the description of the scenery action like that. I could leverage that more effectively 

[00:54:25] Zena Dell Lowe: about 

[00:54:25] Josh Smith: what's going on. Um, um, there were times where we, there are some things we had to work out because I just hadn't thought through it. And here was the description, but now we're in the physical space. So what's the angle? And some of that has to be because then the DP is there, but there are more like the DP asked me clarifying questions.

[00:54:43] The set designers asked me clarifying questions. I hadn't thought about it. But I mean, but I could think, but I could think more about that as a writer and maybe, maybe a part of my write writing process needs to involve going to a physical space that I'm imagining and kind of physically working through what it would be and doing some of that work and putting, putting it in there.

[00:55:05] Um, both from the standpoint of communicating the story and then also communicating to the crew, because all of that translates into every line is like impacts that how the ad thinks about the schedule. And, and then like, do I really need this scene? Do I really need that scene? Yeah. I mean, like, can I save it?

[00:55:30] Because it's just, there's a kind of efficiency, um, and then, and then it's like, when you put stuff, everything you write in there is a shot that has to be logged. 

[00:55:41] Zena Dell Lowe: And then you're doing that scene, and then you're kind of happy 

[00:55:43] Josh Smith: when it's over, and it's like, we got this one here, we got this one here, and it's like, hmm.

[00:55:49] Zena Dell Lowe: So it teaches you, you know. A, what do you actually need to include? What are the things that are actually relevant? So now all of a sudden, like I've been talking about this for a long time, about you don't want anything superfluous. But it doesn't make sense to you until you actually get on the set and you go, Oh, this is superfluous.

[00:56:11] Or, if I say, take the time to flesh this out. Like, what's happening? What do we see? You don't quite get it until you're on the set and you're like, Oh, that's why. I needed to build a little bit more time here to ease into this, to set the tone, to capture the thematic elements through visuals or whatever the case may be.

[00:56:35] I love that. And what you're also saying is that you learned that it really is, even though it has to be this beautifully written document, it really is the blueprint for the production process. That's what everybody relies on to do their job. So what do I need to do differently to help everybody else and every other department do better?

[00:56:59] I love that. 

[00:57:03] Josh Smith: I would say too, to, for me to think more visually in general. Um, that's what, uh, Tamara was helping me with. And if I'm doing that on the front end, I don't have to be a camera expert. Um, but I think just being familiar with visual language is helpful because that's how I'm communicating to the audience and then when I'm describing things.

[00:57:29] How to, how to put that in there. So, cause I mean, cause it's funny cause as a director, I want less direction. Cross out some of the, some of the direction I'm putting in there because I need the actors to be free and what have you, but enough, enough of the spirit of it so that the people, other creative people can do their job.

[00:57:49] Zena Dell Lowe: That is so awesome. What you learned is that if I can change your language a little bit, it wasn't so much that you needed less direction. You needed less micromanaging of the app. Yes. See, that's a mistake that a lot of people make. They think that when they put in all of this direction for the actors, that they're being visual, but that's not, or action oriented, but that's not visual or action oriented, that's just using your actors as puppets.

[00:58:18] So get rid of that as much as possible, except for when it's a significant action and by significant action, it's. She throws a glass. You know, that's something that isn't micromanaging if it's part of the scene, or entering a house, or sneaking up the driveway. Now that's a significant action. Whereas, They look away.

[00:58:45] They look back. They look away. Uh, you know, when you're, when you're getting into the minutiae of what the character is doing, you are micro managing your actors, and you've got to let the actors act. You've got to let them interpret the material. So you learn that.

[00:59:05] Josh Smith: And now when, cause now I'm on a separate thing, I'm doing, I'm, I'm on research sabbatical. So I'm, part of my research is to, is looking at Quentin Tarantino. So I'm reading some of his scripts and looking at his movies and he's a heavy dialogue person. 

[00:59:19] Zena Dell Lowe: Heavy. 

[00:59:20] Josh Smith: But even I, like I'm looking at the script and I'm seeing the final movie and I'm like, oh, he cut the dialogue here.

[00:59:27] He didn't put this dialogue in there. Even him was like, you do the movie and you're, you shoot it and you just move things around. Like that's, that's, that's sucking the energy. You can't have that in there. And it's, and, but I get it. I get it. Cause like we had things that I had written down and like, now sometimes it was just, we didn't have time, 

[00:59:46] Zena Dell Lowe: but 

[00:59:48] Josh Smith: it was fine.

[00:59:49] You know, the movie still works. Um, but the, all those things go into the reality of it. And sometimes even like You wouldn't think it's complicated, but how do you walk into the apartment? What does that look like? What does that actually look like? And some things are just difficult to write. Like it's, it's parts of it were easier when we choreographed, when we were working with the actors, talking about their motivations, dealing with the actor's motivations, and that told a lot.

[01:00:19] Um, it was, it was a collaborative piece, but now having gone through the experience of directing it as a writer, I can probably be more, um, more specific on the front end. 

[01:00:32] Zena Dell Lowe: Love that. 

[01:00:35] Josh Smith: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

[01:00:37] now after this discussion, I'm sure you're as interested as I am

[01:00:42] Zena Dell Lowe: in seeing Josh's short So as soon as that becomes available, I'll be sure and make an announcement and we can all go see his movie We're watching on YouTube. I'm very, very excited for that. 

[01:00:53] And if you have a comment or you want to reach out to Josh, check the notes section below, and you can do that.

[01:01:01]